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  • in reply to: List of things to memorize in music theory #38541
    superblonde
    Keymaster

    I agree, the more you know the better …. You only have so much time/energy/willpower/discipline to spend on Music/Guitar… some have more time than others…

    Time is a frequent theme on this thread. Not having enough time to practice or study theory. Actually I started this thread to save everyone time. Memorize what’s on the list and everything about theory will become much, much faster and easier. Memorizing takes only a few minutes per day but has to be done regularly many times per week for many months to get the benefit. Memorizing is also what pro studio musicians do constantly anyway, by repeatedly practicing runs over chords, especially keyboard players – they don’t call it memorization but that’s what it is. Slogging through the textbooks trying to figure out why one textbook says this and the other says that, or some textbooks don’t explain anything about a concept at all, that wastes a ton of time and the result is going in circles. So many internet threads and videos about ‘what are modes anyways? are they scales?’ is a huge amount of wasted time, when the real focus should be on various ways to write music with them, the threads end up going in circles too. Time and priority is definitely important. All the sites & material & methods for learning music theory wastes tons of time and many steer people wrong, the berklee MOOCs are an easy example of it.

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    in reply to: List of things to memorize in music theory #38538
    superblonde
    Keymaster

    VAIDEOLOGY – Basic Music Theory for Guitar Players
    Named Guardians of Guitar 2019 NAMM top pick!

    Quote from vai’s own web page about his book Vaideology :

    “Then there are those who have a strong desire to master the language of music, but the whole process seems overwhelming and intimidating. And some may even feel embarrassed that they are virtually musically illiterate and have a quiet but insidious belief in their head that they just aren’t smart enough to comprehend it. Whatever you believe will be true to you… until you change your mind about it. Some people can be very critical and may tell you that, if you understand music theory, it will compromise your ability to “play from the heart”. I would recommend not buying into that premise. ” https://www.vai.com/vaideology/

    I was thinking of an older book from Vai though.. Maybe I’m thinking of his official “guitar workout” book (I never got a copy) written after that original “30 hr guitar practice” GW article.

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    in reply to: List of things to memorize in music theory #38537
    superblonde
    Keymaster

    Wasn’t much into Metallica’s “S&M”. But Sons of Apollo with orchestra though – this is hot stuff. Orchestration music theory !


    Sons Of Apollo – Dream On Live with The Plovdiv Psychotic Symphony


    SONS OF APOLLO – Labyrinth (Live at the Roman Amphitheatre in Plovdiv 2018)

    Bumblefoot is the best 😀

    Hot blonde on violin too lol
    😎

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    in reply to: List of things to memorize in music theory #38536
    superblonde
    Keymaster

    I would say guys like Vai and many others are minimizing the value of theory that they know & had previously memorized. Anybody can say “meh I don’t use math” yet everybody spent 2nd grade thru 10th grade five days a week for at least an hour, doing some kind of math and it is ingrained. No one has to look up what “2+3” is, it is memorized and all the operations have become automatic. With music, Vai admits, he had music class in high school for several years, in that time, a ton of stuff became automatic for him. So 30 years later if he says “meh, I don’t use that” then it is better to look at what he is able to create and look at what tools he is really using, rather than rely on what he says he uses as his tools.

    When I’m handed a piece of sheet music in a choir group, I (or at least 1 other guy) has to know on the spot what key it is in, in order to sound the key pitch. By not memorizing just this one thing, key signatures, which is on my list and I’ve now memorized, has previously ended up wasting 30 minutes of valuable meeting time, when none of the dozen guys knew what key the song was in either, or how to read bass clef too (to find their starting note). Memorizing is simply required for some fundamental things in theory. This is just another example of many I’ve already posted… Not only memorizing, but having the ability to respond with the answer fast. Speed counts. Music is done at a tempo. There’s no time to grab a reference list or google on a smart phone for the answer, especially in between chords…

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    in reply to: Nᴏᴛ Aɴᴏᴛʜᴇʀ Mᴇᴍᴇ Tʜʀᴇᴀᴅ #38532
    superblonde
    Keymaster


    The missing Les Paul and Marshall half stack
    has yet to be uncovered by investigators.

    Forensic experts are testing the guitar picks
    found at the scene.

    man-cave2020-c

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    Attachments:
    1. man-cave2020-c.jpg

    in reply to: List of things to memorize in music theory #38531
    superblonde
    Keymaster

    Whoa, two hour live stream, more than five episodes, where’s the concern about “dont have time to learn this theory stuff”?

    It is awesome that our heroes do long livestreams and they’re cool entertainment but consider: if Vai spent the same time preparing educational material to present in a concise way, he would be able to say things once and once only, in probably less than 10 minutes total. Which is what Doug does.. spends a ton of time refining a single lesson to present in a very trimmed-down and perfect format. I didn’t buy the Vai lesson book so I don’t know what is in it, didn’t he write it in the 90s? I assume it is like jazz books.

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    in reply to: List of things to memorize in music theory #38527
    superblonde
    Keymaster

    Steve Vai’s “30 hr guitar practice” included a couple hours of theory. When I saw Vai’s article I wished he would have said what he was referring to because saying “music theory” means a lot of different things to different people.

    steve-vai-30-hour-guitar-practice-theory1

    steve-vai-30-hour-guitar-practice-theory2

    Vai went to berklee or GI so unlikely he studied classical theory, he studied jazz theory. Satch similarly. Jazz guys always seem to fall back to “just go by your ears”. It is disingenuous for an instructor to tell a typical student, “Look at McCartney, he didnt know this or that, he just learned a new chord and wrote so and so…” because does anyone here consider themselves to be a musical prodigy like McCartney? Not me that is for sure. Anyone really want to compare themselves to Jeff Beck in terms of talent abilities? Also not me.

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    Attachments:
    1. steve-vai-30-hour-guitar-practice-theory1.jpg

    2. steve-vai-30-hour-guitar-practice-theory2.jpg

    in reply to: List of things to memorize in music theory #38521
    superblonde
    Keymaster

    Example of why theory is worth some effort. Before & after comparison.

    Here’s the song I wrote “before working hard on music theory” and it took me a really long time to write. I used a lot of online stuff including hook theory to figure out what sounded like the best sounding melody, plus reviewed Doug’s course, the songwriting course, and Sarah’s Melodic Principles.

    The song has a ton of weaknesses.. it is good as a first ever song but basically boring imho.

    Here’s the song I wrote recently after working hard on music theory, plus re-reviewing Doug’s songwriting course and Sarah’s Easy Modes.

    The newer song has a compatible bass line, better chords, different sections, solo in modes which I can say “it works”, it has a lot of good musical stuff to it. It isnt a top hit or anything but it is much better in comparison. And overall it took a couple weeks with steady progress vs tons and tons of head scratching for a couple months like, “uhh I don’t know what to do for the next part or what bass notes to write”.

    Since music theory books (real music theory books, not jazz or pop books) force everyone to read grand staff, know piano, and then have misleading, inconsistent terminology, learning theory requires a lot of hard work and confusion. Which is totally unnecessary but there does not seem to be an alternative even in 2020. Music theory is still stuck in the rut of elitism attitude which MAB makes fun of amazingly well with his ‘stuffy british professor’ imitations. All that can be bypassed with a short list of theory stuff to simply memorize and apply to music. In the same amount of time spent watching yet another 30+ minute non-definitive & confusing Beato or other youtuber video on modes, all the metal-sounding modes can be worked out on paper completely and accurately.

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    in reply to: ᴡʜᴀᴛ’s ʏᴏᴜʀ ᴇxᴄᴜsᴇ? #38519
    superblonde
    Keymaster

    and picking with a coin, yeah?

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    in reply to: List of things to memorize in music theory #38517
    superblonde
    Keymaster

    While we’re at it with the jazz thing. Might as well show Adam Neely if getting uppity about Piston’s choice to use dumb, nonstandard roman numeral capitaliZATion rulEs. Neely has a youtube video “the five influential music theory books” which contains nonsensical ranting (and that is not even the Jazz part) except for the one big fact that his video shows music theory is still evolving and is not written in unchangeable stone like internet musicians claim, these modern theory books usually point out dozens of problems or limitations in the way theory is notated and taught.

    At 2:50 he disses Kostka, a music theory textbook author, labelling the textbook “yuck”. Kostka’s textbook is one of the top 5 most used music theory textbooks in the past couple decades. Neely calls the book dry aka uninspiring. I have that book and skimmed some of it, at least it is written in straight language, not a flowery academic style, and it uses consistent notation too.


    The 5 Music Theory/Composition Books That Most Influenced Me

    Yeah great, study these Neely favorite books for two years in order to write music that sounds like five cats howling at midnight. “But it’s jazz, man!”

    “Tonal Harmony (Kostka)
    Grade Levels: 9-12
    For more than two decades, Tonal Harmony has been the leading text for AP Music Theory students and music majors. Used at nearly 800 schools, Tonal Harmony has been consistently praised for its practicality and ease of use for student and teacher alike. The straightforward approach ….”

    Regardless of Neely’s dissing of the theory book, note the grade level given: high school. Everything on my list of basic music theory so far is in the first 1/3rd of the “high school” book. Not even towards the middle of intermediate high school level material.

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    in reply to: List of things to memorize in music theory #38515
    superblonde
    Keymaster

    Ah, that stuff is on my “music theory list part 2 – intermediate level”. This list is only the basics of theory, just like the basic course is the basics, though each thing on the list can be used to create all that later-intermediate stuff from the fundamentals. I havent read Ted Green’s stuff I don’t think. As for jazz my list includes counting notes up to the 13th for chords, which means being able to name almost any chord, and the common rhythm patterns so that covers a lot of the jazz basics too. I suppose on youtube there are videos “what makes jazz jazz?” which is a whole controversy itself which jazz players don’t ever explain but to me can be described as “play a bunch of dissonant sounding chords on off beats”.

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    in reply to: List of things to memorize in music theory #38513
    superblonde
    Keymaster

    Hasn’t everyone who has completed Doug’s Basic Course, and Sarah’s excellent lessons, and MAB’s Speed Kills, in essence “mastered” the instrument? Most every technique is covered and the very useful neck patterns are learned.

    I guess there is nothing missing from my list then? Or is there? I think it is the complete list of basics.

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    in reply to: List of things to memorize in music theory #38511
    superblonde
    Keymaster

    The berklee MOOCs on songwriting uses soundcloud for the student submissions. Part of the assignment is to give feedback on others’ work. I gave lots of feedback in the MOOCs a few years ago with the hopes that I could get feedback on my own, but that didn’t happen and I have given up reviewing anything from others now. The point is that the typical ‘singer songwriter’ out there, needs to learn more. As I mentioned.. tens of thousands of people on MOOCs who post their struggles to learn theory easily proves that there needs to be more basic, straightforward theory material, of real theory not watered down theory, and not the ivory tower “ok lets look at Haydn on piano grand staff as example #3”.

    I can do everything that I put on my list and I consider it the short list of very basic stuff. I cant do it very fast, not at tempo. A jazz bassist or guitarist is able to count notes in a scale to at tempo. Speed matters. I don’t want to play jazz and don’t want to, but the fundamentals of what jazz players do is to work through the memory exercises every day for hours, and that benefits any playing or songwriting. They don’t call it memorization though, even though it is. I think they call it “playing over changes.” Everything on the theory list can be practiced without the guitar in the lap.

    There could be more on my list but it is the very basic stuff. It is like the general high school skill level list, not the AP high school level list. For example I didn’t include the handful of other chords like the N chord.

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    in reply to: List of things to memorize in music theory #38507
    superblonde
    Keymaster

    It depends on the level of what ‘musician’ means to you. For many local musicians I talk to, ie the bar band guys, they are happy to play the Stones and have been doing it since they were 14. That’s totally fine. I ask them if they modify the songs or make medleys or anything, they say, no. That’s their choice and they’re happy with those jams. Things change dramatically if you look at what the “AP test” or UCLA expects for a “musician”. (Thats why I was saying either in this thread or a similar thread, that there is a huge disconnect between general player types and the degreed-musician types.)

    The rubber meets the road when going to a jam and no one can figure out even how to write a chart properly. When my neighbor jazz drummer wants to jam, he will no longer play with the guy who can’t/doesn’t write song charts, because he says he wants to ‘create music’ and improvise which requires a chart, he does not want to be a human metronome.

    Anyway, my original list is simply a way to cut thru the b.s. Just memorize the stuff on the list and the results will be positive.

    I think everyone on this thread is basically in agreement that theory is good to know. Except for bdickens who got tweaked about Piston writing incorrect chord notation, who knows why, because nearly every reference or real-life example I find on theory explains how theory itself is misleading or confusing. I don’t know why anyone would argue this is not the case when it so clearly is. Like this example. A few days ago I googled for cadences because I’m trying to write a new song, thought I’d try a different type of chord progression, and this article popped up. It observes that cadence in music theory uses “inconsistent formulations and misconceptions that have regularly led to discrepant applications” and tries to describe a consistent method instead. Also known as: music theory is confusing. Should a bar band care? No.. this doesn’t apply to playing a Stones cover. Is it important when trying to use theory to write a chord progression and cadence.. Yes. It’s not some crazy idea that a theory about a subject should be consistent, with clear notation too.

    cadence2004

    Devin Townsend had a funny interview a few years ago where he admits he knows no theory, wanted to explain to his bandmate to play a different type of chord in a new song, and he says, “I told him to play a different chord, he asked what chord, I said, I don’t know, play the round one. Play the one that sounds round. Thats the only way I relate music.” Hmm, that is not a sign of a system of music education which works.

    Also, play a progression, record it, and try soloing over it. If you know scale shapes and modal shapes, try everything, but listen back critically to see why this works, or this doesn’t. I know that seems lengthy, but sometimes the best thing you can do is just work it until it clicks. I spent upwards of 6-8 hours a day as a preteen, and teenager practicing guitar. I know that’s a lot and as adults most of us don’t have that kindo of time. I get that. But sometimes, it exactly TIME that helps a roadblock as does time away from it as well.

    There’s different ways to ‘do music’, one of them is like that. Free improv, trial and error, jamming, experimentation. But there is also the other way, the theory way. Here’s the funny thing. The improv method requires this: “listen back critically to see why this works, or this doesn’t”. Go listen to some amateur music on soundcloud or something… most of it sounds horrible (and my stuff too). Because the catch-22 is that hearing what works requires good ears. Writing music by theory though, does not require good ears because the theory works on it’s own (of course, as long as the theory is understood without confusion). That is why sometime back last year, I wrote a challenge on a thread, to write a solo without listening to it, or imagining how it sounds: i.e. use only theory; but, this created an argument of its own, because that concept, of using theory and not using ears, was apparently so foreign as to be ego-bruising. ROTM did it though, with quite a good solo as a result.

    It isnt really overthinking it to suggest that musicians should use correct and common notation. The guy who wrote the paper above says his purpose too: understand music better, and listen/enjoy music better:
    “Ultimately, I trust that a more precise and focused conception of cadence will have the heuristic value of sharpening our listening experience and encouraging us to make more subtle distinctions among a wide variety of harmonic, rhythmic, and formal phenomena.”

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    Attachments:
    1. cadence2004.jpg

    in reply to: List of things to memorize in music theory #38504
    superblonde
    Keymaster

    I would guess that advert is from someone selling playing lessons. The ironic thing is that everyone “says” they would love to learn more theory but then an instructor selling lessons disses the idea of learning theory and those saying they’d love to learn more theory end up skipping any effort at learning it.

    There was a cool straight-up interview with Dave Mustaine about a week ago, interviewed by one of the young guitarist youtuber guys (I forget his name right now but he is a good musician and interviewer). Mustaine said about Kiko: ‘he’s great because he can show me stuff, stuff I didn’t know, he has a classical theory background, and can explain to me what I’m playing, and tell me that a chord doesn’t fit, I wish I knew more about this. I have trouble explaining what I am playing.’

    So if Mustaine is saying, he wishes he knew more theory, then hmmm who has the better opinion.. Mustine vs a youtube advert..

    Knowing what chord to play for the right purpose, if knowing theory, and knowing when to break the rules of theory, takes about five seconds. Playing 10 different chords by trial and error to figure out which one sounds best might take 5 minutes…or could take 5 months..

    Giving away all the answers for how to easily learn music theory once-and-for-all, does not sell and re-sell lessons. Better to confuse customers, not explain modes properly, then continue to sell and re-sell “What are modes, anyway? Buy my book to find out” lessons..

    However the disclaimer still applies which was in my original list. If someone is not good at doing homework then just don’t bother with it and instead just play. Not everybody should go to college for example and pushing everyone to study textbook stuff when it is not their natural talent is not correct, many people are great talents at vocational work. In comparison I am terrible at playing by ear or transcribing even after spending hundreds, thousands(?) of hours at getting better at it, because of so much advice “oh you’ll get better just keep at it”.. in reality I should probably give up on it and invest my time more productively on either just playing or working out the theory of songs.

    My first vocal instructor many many years ago, said she had performed once on Broadway (since the advert brags about that). She did not have all her marbles in place and definitely could not explain music theory (or teach singing that well either, even though I bought her book) but apparently she had been “a performer on Broadway”.. I ended up as a worse singer after that actually..

    What I hear is that he is saying it really doesn’t matter, don’t get hung up on it. That’s my interpretation anyway, right or wrong that’s what I take away from it.

    That is a good interpretation of Beato’s attitude. For me I don’t relate to it. I don’t build a countertop which has a wobbly leg and then say “ahh it doesn’t matter that much, don’t get hung up on it.” It seems like the overwhelming attitude of the general music community. Probably what it really translates to is this, I’m not trying to be insulting, but just cut to the point: “I don’t understand how this works, so I’m going to gloss over it and say it doesn’t matter.” Metal would be far better off if the musicians raised their standards. Doug and Metal Method certainly did that, for playing technique. MAB likes to say, and it’s correct, that Speed Kills raised the bar for everyone’s playing, made everyone better, technique-wise. So did Doug’s Basic Course. But music theory has not been done in the same way. Especially the jazz guys seem to learn theory halfway, if even that, and then say “meh, it’s jazz man, it is improv, there’s no rules” or whatever. From that standpoint, if Beato, or any other big youtuber, says something in a theory video which is unclear, or confusing, or wrong, then he should have 100+ viewers call him out on it. No one should accept mediocre stuff about theory. Just like no one accepts a bend that sounds wrong in a big youtuber’s video, they would get instantly trashed for it.

    As a metalhead I absolutely hate the way metal is disrespected and a lot of that could be the lack of attention to theory. Anytime I talk to my jazz playing neighbor or run into local musicians I recognize from open mic or whatever. “Oh what are you playing these days? Oh.. metal. You play guitar.. You ever check out Pat Metheney? When you outgrow that metal stuff, you could learn a lot.. you ever listen to Steely Dan?” Yeesh. As if Tool is not equal to or better than those guys. And awards shows? Metal should be winning tons of songwriting awards, and it’s important to do so. The ivory tower types are still keeping Metal down.

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

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