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    • #36972
      Copperhead
      Participant

      I would like to start a thread for Melodic Soloing ideas, questions, examples, hints, etc. Feel free to add anything, especially examples. Either players/solos by name, or specific examples of your input.
      First I assume that you would need fretboard knowledge, scale shapes and basic chord theory – in other words, everything taught in Doug’s courses, for example.
      To start off, I have found the most common idea put forth seems to be: Use chord tones.
      This seems to be basic, but as far as it goes, it only scratches the surface. It also brings up the problem of, say soloing over a one or even two chord vamp. You’re going to be pretty limited using chord tones (only).
      I’m going to go with you either feel like you want a “major” or “minor” tonality for the sound you are hoping to create. However, I usually like a mix of pentatonics with a full 7 note scale – Minor, Major, Dorian or Harmonic Minor, maybe.
      Another common hint is: Sing or play something a vocalist would sing. Unfortunately, this doesn’t help me at all. As I posted elsewhere, I can’t sing.
      For technique, I would look for a mix of legato (but not too much), hammer and pull offs, bends – the usual. Not a fan of tapping – I think it’s way overdone.
      So for my input here, one thing I find attractive in “Melodic Solos” is to mix slower passages with faster, almost shred-type runs.
      Some examples to think about: Santana Europa or Smooth.
      A more bluesy (although not your typical blues progression) example would be Gary Moore Still Got the Blues.
      Metal examples might be some of Kirk Hammet’s solos, Michael Schenker’s solos, and some of the Scorpion’s solos (Mattias Jabs?)
      o

    • #36978
      superblonde
      Keymaster

      Somehow the genre is mixed in there. I mean, someone who plays or listens to a lot of jazz, there have been posters on the forum before, will have very different view on melody, than someone who leans towards delta blues, which maybe applies to Gary Moore. Metal might really be in different styles. A lot of metal I like seems to use modal melodies (but not modal like jazz, somehow modal like classical) whereas other metal is more bluesy or more punk (and punk just seems to be “whatever those other guys are playing, we’re not playing that!”).

      The main way melodies are made in rock and metal seems to be using the ear. The simple recipe there is, do doug’s week 25-33 where he goes over the modes. Except, just play one mode (no others) for an entire month or more, until the sound is etched into the ear, so much that the notes can be hummed while playing along. Then, doing any noodling will gravitate towards using those notes because they will sound like the familiar tones. I’m pretty sure that is how most metal guitarists actually developed their melodic taste. After reading Ozzy’s autobiography I’m pretty sure that this is how Ozzy did it too, and supposedly he was always counted on to be the one who would “figure out the melody” over Iommi’s riffs, by singing random words or nonsense syllables, and then Geezer would later write the lyrics using the melodies. No music theory knowledge required, just lots of time hearing and imagining the notes.

      I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
      And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    • #36981
      rightonthemark
      Participant

      melodic soloing…
      start with learning simple recognizable lead parts.
      don’t worry about complete solos – just those melodic parts you really recognize and love. maybe something like the opening lead part in jamie’s crying from van halen.
      then move onto longer passages or complete solos. maybe like the solo for go your own way from fleetwood mac.
      then check out other melodic solos – especially power ballad types like keep on loving you from reo speedwagon.
      not a power ballad but smells like teen spirit is a good one because it’s based on the vocal melody.
      and of course learn to play vocal melodies on guitar.
      with sites like songsterr you can find vocal melodies already tabbed out for guitar.
      in all of this notice scale shapes being used and intervals.
      it’ll definitely have you approaching soloing differently and more melodically than just playing scale licks.

      rock and roll ain't pretty; that's why they picked us to play it.

    • #36982
      Copperhead
      Participant

      Lots of good ideas there. I think one thing I’m trying to do, is NOT do the same thing I usually do. I know some good licks and the modes and scales. But if I want to try a Melodic Solo, I don’t get the result I want. So I am trying to find how to make it “different” from my usual playing.

      I got Stage Four of Doug’s lesson when it was on sale before Christmas and the two solos I have worked on so far (the easy Am and the harder Gm ones) have lots that get me headed down a different path from my usual. He’s very good at taking it where I don’t expect it.

      Another thought – If you normally play, say Minor Pentatonic – try playing in a Major key, using all 7 notes. I think that’s one reason why Boston sounds so melodic to me.

      • This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Copperhead.
    • #36990
      Copperhead
      Participant

      At the risk of pushing my own thread (LOL) ….

      I already posted this guy in the Videos thread. But I like this one from him. YouTube Delozier Still I Wait.
      Or at east 90% of it. Around 2:20 or so he does some weird stuff I don’t care for. I do like how he mixes slow, melodic playing with faster shred parts though.

      Fun Fact: I’ve been in the castle that he shows at the start of the video. Newschwannstein Schloss in Bavaria. That trip to Germany and Austria is how I found my second/third/or whatever career as a High School German teacher.

    • #36993
      superblonde
      Keymaster

      henry rollins was in the news today (because of an ad promotion) so I happened to look up some classic black flag and was reminded of this thread. Melody is an odd subject when it comes to punk or underground metal. Listen to the guitar leads on “Slip It In” (‘duet’ with Suzi Gardner of L7 😁 ). I have no idea if the guitar solo is even a mode, lol. Or just random notes that sounded good at the time? How does it sound now? The song is considered good enough to be the title track of the album.


      Black Flag – Slip It In

      Overall my point is that new types of melody can invent new genres because it sounds so different, and different is cool. I assume that’s why Doug and many rock guitarists try not to present the “melodic rules” which older genres like classical have.. it’s more about creativity and playing what sounds good to yourself, creating your own style (I think there’s downfalls with that approach because it is hard to know what “sounds good” for those of us with tin ears).

      I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
      And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

      • #36999
        rightonthemark
        Participant

        at about 1:43
        that’s what i hear

        rock and roll ain't pretty; that's why they picked us to play it.

    • #36996
      Copperhead
      Participant

      I would call that an “anti solo”

    • #36998
      superblonde
      Keymaster

      It’s “good” though, right? I didnt get into Black Flag much because their timing is so sloppy, which I know is a characteristic of punk and hardcore but I like tight rhythm, but otherwise, it’s a solid song and riff. I will post specific parts of the solo which I like, when I have more time later.

      Did you make it through Sarah’s Melodic Principles already? I think that background is a must-have (intervals etc), before talking too much about theories of melodies.

      I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
      And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    • #37002
      Copperhead
      Participant

      random thoughts:
      I think I corn-fused them with the Electric Flag – totally different group.

    • #37004
      Copperhead
      Participant

      Here’s an up-tempo one that has many of the right elements. Vinnie Moore

    • #37046
      superblonde
      Keymaster

      The below pic is the start of melody rules for classical, from a textbook i just got (Westergaard, tonal theory). It shows some of the basic ideas using rules that it numbers like A1, A2, .. and it starts with the last note, to work backwards, to create the “melody line”. these melody rules go on for quite a number of pages but im just sharing it as an example.

      Use Guitar Pro! it is an amazing tool for this.. write down some ideas into GP tab following some rules, play it, rearrange the notes, repeat..

      I would say, watch out for studying instrumental guys like Moore, because that is more advanced from my perspective. Better to try something with a vocal, because then the solo can borrow ideas from the vocal when playing (like play the vocal as a riff), it seems easier to sound good that way.

      Screen-Shot-2020-01-16-at-4.29.39-PM

      Screen-Shot-2020-01-16-at-4.36.36-PM

      I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
      And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

      Attachments:
      1. Screen-Shot-2020-01-16-at-4.29.39-PM.jpg

      2. Screen-Shot-2020-01-16-at-4.36.36-PM.jpg

    • #37068
      rorygfan
      Participant

      To start off, I have found the most common idea put forth seems to be: Use chord tones.
      This seems to be basic, but as far as it goes, it only scratches the surface. It also brings up the problem of, say soloing over a one or even two chord vamp. You’re going to be pretty limited using chord tones (only).

      You have to mix chord tones with diatonic and leading tones, bends into a chord tone, etc. You mention Michael Schenker, study Rock Bottom solo. David Gilmour: Comfortably numb, another brick in the wall, Blackmore Highway Star solo.

      Vocal melody dissection I have mentioned here numerous times in the past (but buried in old posts or were trashed when someone hacked the forum), but Midi files you can take say a Beatles vocal line or even a Mozart piece and transpose it for guitar parts. Simply import a midi file into guitarpro, move it down ac octave if needed, then change tab fingerings as needed. ROTM is correct just focus on small segments you like then examine which chord changes occur during the solo. They key to me is sparse usage, phrasing and slower playing. Gary Moore you mention, both Still in Love with you, and Parisiene walkways really are melodic and like Gilmour, loaded with expressive bends.

      This what I do, and read Satriani did years ago. Examine your entire palette. If you have a loop pedal create a continuous chord that repeats like Beato does to freeze the note. Then use start with all 12 tones over it. Jam for awhile on all. Then ignore the chord tones completely. Strike a leading tone and not hang over it against the frozen note. See if it leads or distracts. Then Remove the 3rds. See which non diatonic ones sound horrible and remove them too. Then concentrate on the remaining regardless if diatonic or not. Then revisit those notes as candidates for a melody. I am not a fan of heavy dissonance, but also not a fan of too “sweet sounding” melody. Its a balance. Bends are key to the beauty imo of it all. Not a fan of high speed shredding in solos as its like trying to listen to someone speaking too fast for comprehension or like a foreign language where your brain tunes it out, though I do admire the high speed players, sweep picking etc if they write melodically.

      Like SB says, Sarah has Melodic training on intervals.

    • #37094
      superblonde
      Keymaster

      Twenty years ago, the British psychologist John Sloboda conducted a simple experiment. He asked music lovers to identify passages of songs that reliably set off a physical reaction, such as tears or goose bumps. Participants identified 20 tear-triggering passages, and when Dr. Sloboda analyzed their properties, a trend emerged: 18 con- tained a musical device called an “appoggiatura.”

      Chill-provoking passages, they found, shared at least four features. They began softly and then suddenly became loud. They included an abrupt entrance of a new “voice,” either a new instrument or harmony. And they often in- volved an expansion of the frequencies played. In one passage from Mozart’s Piano Concerto No. 23 (K. 488), for instance, the violins jump up one octave to echo the melody. Finally, all the passages contained unexpected devi- ations in the melody or the harmony. Music is most likely to tingle the spine, in short, when it includes surprises in volume, timbre and harmonic pattern.

      Anatomy of a Tear-Jerker By MICHAELEEN DOUCLEFF

      ANATOMY-OF-A-TEAR-JERKER

      I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
      And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

      Attachments:
      1. ANATOMY-OF-A-TEAR-JERKER.pdf

    • #37547
      superblonde
      Keymaster

      Right now I am working on a melody exercise from a book which is difficult yet fun and sounds cool, I’ve been working on it about 2 mos now. The basic idea is to write 8 measures of a very simple, basic melody over just a couple chords (i.e. melody is quarter notes only, and uses only chord tones). It will sound dull but thats ok at the start. Then, take the same chords & melody and write the next 8 measures by picking one (and only one) aspect to modify. So I chose to add in some 8th notes. Repeat this process as many times as possible, each next 8 measures choose one specific aspect to modify. Of course, I’m doing it in guitar pro which makes it easier. So far I used 16th notes, then triplets, then staccato (muting), then rhythm (syncopation), then I added a couple more chords. It is challenging to keep adding alterations while keeping the flavor of the original melody, a good exercise. Might want to try this.

      I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! ♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
      And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    • #37558
      rightonthemark
      Participant

      i always talk about learning vocal melodies on guitar.
      here’s an incredible instrumental of a queen classic where he plays the vocal lines and includes some of the killer guitar parts as well.

      rock and roll ain't pretty; that's why they picked us to play it.

    • #37561
      Copperhead
      Participant

      Check his other solos – Beat It, Sultans, etc. This guy is good.

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