HomeForumsOther TopicsBeliefs determine playing ability

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This topic contains 13 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  safetyblitz 8 months ago.

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  • #20350

    superblonde
    Keymaster

    Do you believe that musical ability is genetic or environmental? Is the ability innate or learned? According to this, it is the belief itself and the belief alone which determines 2x more success. Believe in the wrong ‘alternative fact’, and it will result in needing 2x more practice time for similar skill level, compared to belief in the ‘factual fact’ – because, believing that musical ability is genetic results in lazy practice habits.

    … Motivation is a key area of investigation for researchers and practitioners in music education. Understanding motivation is vital for addressing questions of how and why people take up learning a musical instrument, how they persist through the challenges of learning and practice, and how they become successful or why they quit. … Regardless of whether musical abilities are innate and immutable, it is beliefs about whether they are innate or immutable that seem to matter.

    Self-determination theory: An approach to motivation in music education, Paul Evans
    School of Education, UNSW Australia, DOI: 10.1177/1029864914568044

    Self-determination-theory-An-approach-to-motivation-in-music-education

    Types-of-extrinsic-motivation-with-music-relevant-behaviours

    Concluding remarks
    The question of how music teachers and parents can motivate their students and children to practise may be misguided. Many strategies in common usage by parents and teachers are, according to SDT, ineffective, and may inadvertently undermine motivation in undesirable ways. The better question to consider is, how can parents and teachers create social environ- ments in which their students are more likely to generate their own interest, enjoyment, and motivation, so that they can identify the value of musical practice, integrate it with their sense of self, and find intrinsic motivation in the inherent rewards that musical engagement has to offer? …. it seems clear that music learning is best motivated within a social environment that fulfils basic psychological needs— competence, relatedness, and autonomy—experiences that are as closely associated with health and wellbeing as music itself.

    Examples-of-needs-supporting-and-needs-thwarting-behaviour-in-music-teaching

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    Attachments:
    1. Self-determination-theory-An-approach-to-motivation-in-music-education.png

    2. Types-of-extrinsic-motivation-with-music-relevant-behaviours.png

    3. Examples-of-needs-supporting-and-needs-thwarting-behaviour-in-music-teaching.png

  • #20366

    Igglepud
    Participant

    I can tell you from my teaching experience that belief is half of EVERYTHING. My students who think they are “stupid” have to overcome that belief before they can even make an ATTEMPT at learning anything.

    “I’m bad at chess!” “I suck at Spanish!” “I’m terrible at guitar!”- Of COURSE you are! You’ve never done it before!

    There is a large disconnect between “effort” and “results”. The only way to become good at anything is to start off by being bad and then improve over time. True, some people will start slightly better than others and some will need to work a little more to get similar results. But NOBODY is born playing “Speed Kills” on their first pawn shop guitar.

    MY ROCK IS FIERCE!!!

  • #20367

    superblonde
    Keymaster

    I like that table of intrinsic motivation, I was pondering it late into the night, and wonder if maybe I’m biased that way in general, for example it would explain a lot of career conflicts I’ve had over the years, vs coworkers just putting out bad work to make an artificial deadline and taking a fat paycheck. But also, I’m maybe biased against doing stuff that doesn’t have that “fun factor” even if it is paying really well.

    It’s cool to hear it lines up with real life experience in the classroom from a real instructor day-to-day.

    All research should be questioned of course.. for example, these researchers didn’t ask the obvious question, “And how about your motivation to practice in order to land hot chicks??!” 😀 hey, that’s why I’m here! (not! 😀 altho it’s fun to daydream, part of the rock n roll fantasy)

    According to the “Table 1”, I think that is one area where the basic course could be improved, because Doug made the videos so concise, it cut out a lot of the “why this exercise is important” type dialogue before each exercise. Whereas, the table says that explaining the “why’s” is a link to making things intrinsic, the student can internalize the reason for doing a boring scale exercise and then it becomes meaningful and ultimately fun on it’s own. So, this research claims that knowing the “why are we doing this” is important for success because motivation can then come from within. vs. the typical guy (aka, me) asking “why” just thinking he is being annoying, hah.

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    • #20368

      Igglepud
      Participant

      I don’t think Doug’s videos depend so much on the why. I’m making a big assumption here, but a student who signs up for this video series and works through it probably has the intrinsic motivation.

      I’m only on week six right now, but the “why” that I get from Doug on the scales is that it familiarizes you with the fretboard, which is key to making your own music. It is also a foundation for a lot of covers as many solos are based on those pentatonic patterns.

      MY ROCK IS FIERCE!!!

    • #20385

      superblonde
      Keymaster

      Hmm maybe the way to find out whether or not the motivation is already intrinsic or later becomes intrinsic, would be to do a survey “Do you play scales for fun? Or if you dont play scales at all currently, does it sound like it would be a fun daily exercise?” before and after working thru the first 20 weeks.

      The other thing about the table, is that the “don’t do this” column is basically a description of that yelling instructor in the movie Whiplash. Which is a character stereotype or mashup based on real life instructors. Bizarre that people like this continue to exist (without being deserted by their students because of bad behavior). There was a local instructor that someone told me about, who was said to be super critical like this (not sure if it went over to the verbally abusive side), they said he was pretty good at getting results and his students were playing Zappa covers. I dont know either way, just a typical story about such types. I can say tho that “Camp Metal Method” was not like that 😀 quite the opposite, it was a lovely camp 😀

      I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
      And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

  • #20369

    safetyblitz
    Participant

    I think this concept circles back to the question of whether the capacity to embrace success-friendly beliefs and experience intrinsic motivation is itself a “talent”. I suspect there’s largely a make-or-break window during early childhood for developing a healthy attitude about learning, where the key mindset is formed (or not) from life experiences and the attitudes of caregivers. I’m reminded of the Jesuit saying “Give me the child for the first seven years, and I will give you the man.”

    The good news for those of us reading this forum is that unless someone is forcing us to be here, our presence itself is evidence of the capacity to take responsibility for our own learning…

    • #20386

      superblonde
      Keymaster

      Or “believes in science!” maybe? I have had quite a job trying to convince bandmates about proper ways to practice according to some of the ideas mentioned previously on the forum here (proven with science). Even the vocal director didnt know or readily adopt some things I mentioned about possible better practice. Well, the world is stuck on, ah, alternative facts at the moment…

      Good point you have there, I didnt think of it that way. Its a really good point because as far back as I can remember personally, I simply avoid stuff that is purely extrinsic according to how that paper describes it. I might do something unpleasant for a little while if it has a reward (like a fat paycheck or social status type stuff) but overall I’ll ditch it pretty quick, who knows, maybe that itself could be called, being a natural.. well, long hairs, punk anarchists, artists, those types, are always known for “doing their own thing” and not following the bro’s. I dont think of myself as an artist type though. But certainly I’m a natural nonconformist and I think metalheads in general are too, more likely to be like that.

      I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
      And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

  • #20395

    Pittsburghdave
    Participant

    Interesting topic. I believe its a combination of both, with an emphasis on the genetics.  Take Paul Gilbert for example. The guy is a freak in the sense that he was shredding and making records while still a teenager. That being said, he grew up in a very supportive environment. His father was a musician and built Pauls first guitar. So a combination of musical genetics plus supportive environment give us the Paul Gilberts of the world. Belief plays a huge part in everything we do. Self belief is half the battle (even when it comes to meeting hot chicks as superblonde mentioned)!!!!

  • #20396

    DanzoStrife
    Participant

    Very good positive article and research! We become who we want to become if we strive for it. I remember Joe Perry said he did not come from a musical family. Jeff Hanneman also noted he had no background either. They both worked for it and got it 🙂

  • #20509

    superblonde
    Keymaster

    I ran across this university podcast which was trying to describe why students might be turned away from music studies – that reenforcing the idea of lack of talent is a problem in western education which is mostly for western classical music.

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    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    Attachments:
    1. page1.png

    2. page2.png

  • #20513

    safetyblitz
    Participant

    I ran across this university podcast which was trying to describe why students might be turned away from music studies – that reenforcing the idea of lack of talent is a problem in western education which is mostly for western classical music.

    So, like, um, wasn’t the whole point of the creation of the World Wide Web to make it easy to share links to things? In which case, like, um, would you mind sharing a *link* to this? 😉

  • #20517

    Igglepud
    Participant

    By first or second grade kids believe they are “good” or “bad” at things. Nobody talks about being “inexperienced”. We need a cultural change where we as a society believe in WORK FOR RESULTS and need to instill that belief at a very young age.

    MY ROCK IS FIERCE!!!

  • #20525

    safetyblitz
    Participant

    Normally I put links but in this case I dont have one.. it is a podcast that was embedded in this MOOC that I posted in the MOOC thread. Unit 2 – Podcast Transcript How music can change the lives of children, educators, and others working in schools by Dr Daphne Rickson It’s a solid MOOC and brings up heavy metal in a couple places tho overall it’s more on the fluffy side (I listened to it at 170% playback speed while practicing scales ). https://www.coursera.org/learn/music-life Arts and Humanities – Music and Art – How Music Can Change Your Life, The University of Melbourne I forget where but that new term musicking has been here on the forum before. Hm I can attach the PDF of the podcast. 05_podcast-by-dr-daphne-rickson_Transcript_-_Unit_2_How_music_can_change_the_lives_of_children_educators_and_others_working_in_schools_by_Dr_Daphne_Rickson

    Thanks. I was puzzled when googling specific phrases from your screenshot failed to yield any exact matches. 😀 I also mistakenly believed you were referring to the original podcast itself and not a transcript hosted by a third party. Groovy.

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