HomeForumsSoftwareAbout Ty Segall and making full albums in Garageband

This topic contains 45 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  pipelineaudio 2 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #20605

    superblonde
    Keymaster

    A while back I mentioned Ty Segall. A millenial guy who has released many hard rocking and overdriven fuzz garage rock albums in a short time, like multiple albums per year. His stuff sounds very ‘live’ and not over produced or slick. I think out of SF and now LA. Another guy that started as a guitarist then became a drummer then became a guitarist-frontman then became a frontman? Anyway I was listening to some of his interviews. At least two of his album releases (CD releases I guess, I dont know if he had vinyl done) were completely done in Garageband. He says this in one of his interviews in a very quick side comment then says “Oops, I guess no one was supposed to know that, well, they know now, hah hah.” Tho I didnt understand the hidden details because I dont know all the many things that go into making a professional album (mastering etc).

    So yeah I guess even hard rock garage bands can get by with just Garageband..

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

  • #20607

    pipelineaudio
    Participant

    I don’t know what Garage Band’s limitations are, but if you are coming in with a decent interface, it certainly is capable of much higher fidelity than the 2″ machines we used to have to use

  • #20608

    Igglepud
    Participant

    I just opened it and saw EQ’s, compressors, autotuning, quantization, and a lot more. I rarely use it so I’m not that familiar with how to work it all, but the features seem pretty rich.

    MY ROCK IS FIERCE!!!

  • #20615

    rorygfan
    Participant

    Back last year I was goofing around with looping, soundcloud, audacity, garageband and taking and cutting up an acapella vocal line ( I dug up online and modifying it to sound dark) and ruining Alice’s song…. but got 153,000 listens.  The quality is pretty nice and clear for a simple consumer product.

    https://soundcloud.com/wadesmother/im-eighteen-dark-dbcut-alice-cooper_cover

    Garageband is supposed to be for the masses, and not “cool” I suppose for that guy to admit he used that instead of ProTools- which to me is a royal pain to use… so is Reaper- way too many settings, features, options etc just to get some work done.  I gave up and owned both… don’t personally like to spend ton’s of time learning new human interfaces that kill off my enthusiasm for recording in the first place- I hate all these multi-function-do-it-all-over-feature ladden non intuitive interfaces.  So, to me Garageband it is easy to use to rapidly create music (Like Acid used to be, as I said here before), great cut and paste and insert looped segments, the guitar processor effects work great and the tone is fine on the stock older osx version I use, there are some control limitations, but the sound quality is fine for average stuff imho. Superblonde- you use audacity and you like it right?, well it’s easy to use somewhat and you are using the same front end guitar interface input with either that or garageband so sound quality results would be the same.

     

  • #20713

    pipelineaudio
    Participant

    Its funny, REAPER gets from the new to DAW users that its the easiest, most intuitive interface, but from previous DAW users that it is very unintuitive. You can please half the people half of the time, or something. As a previous DAW user, I find Garageband and most of the Teutonic and apple programs to be extremely counterintuitive. The gold standard GUI for me was always Vegas/Soundforge/Acid and the first few versions of reaper were very much Vegas, with ACID’s MIDI and really just patching all the holes in the routing and multi-tempo issues in Vegas.

  • #20716

    MattKnox
    Participant

    I follow Clay Mills and Marty Dodson a lot.  These are guys who have sold #1 hit songs to very popular artists.  They have both recorded great sounding demos using Garageband.  Personally, it is the reason I switched to Mac’s years ago, because I wanted the DAW.  It’s cool to use, simple.  I haven’t gotten into mixing and mastering yet though

  • #20718

    superblonde
    Keymaster

    I dont use Audacity.. always strongly disliked it, I think the user interface is trash, the way it zooms or not zooms etc. I used to like Cool Edit Pro and I did a lot of editing in it of my bootlegs and burning my own recordings to CD. It was simple and great to use the Cool Edit envelopes altho doing each operation did take forever back then, plus the disk space for each step of undo’s, crazy. The only good thing about Audacity in my opinion is that it has simple tone generators that are really easy to for example create a sine wav at xx dB and xx seconds long.

    Reaper is like a video editor in how it operates, it makes a control file and doesn’t actually apply all the operations into a WAV until the Render step, there’s no massive disk space used with copies and copies of versions of whatever is being edited. Much superior to like Garageband or Audacity or Logic any other DAW that makes a new internal WAV for each edit and has to “apply” stuff at every step of the way into disk.

    I like Garageband in a way but I get frustrated because it is so dumbed down, like, I want to be able to insert many markers or split up sections to bounce around quick and reorder them etc but that’s something that would confuse ‘normal’ users so Apple eliminates those features to keep things simple. (Even in Reaper, I get frustrated by some of Reaper’s limitations with markers and regions, because to me, there should be a region stack, i.e. you can have a region inside a region inside a region, and they will show as ribbons on top of each other.. you can make regions inside regions as-is but the small region will be directly on top of the large region, making selection very difficult.. for example I want to make regions out of the vocal measures and regions out of the guitar rhythm sections, where obviously the vocal measure regions would be inside and smaller than the guitar rhythm regions)

    I find it amazing that some bands have made albums in Garageband completely. Well, I guess if a band is talented, all they really need to do, is press the Record button and play a song with an 8-input interface attached (4 for drums, 4 for the other guys right?) – nothing else really needed. It would be great to know if Ty Segall used the Garageband software modellers or if he used his own amps. I think he is a total tube and fuzz guy, so, he probably mic’ed his real amp, and didnt use a software patch to get his tones.

    Speaking of DAW, previously I had been looking at multi-effects foot pedals as my “amp” but maybe I will go total software instead and get BIAS FX and an ipad mini to run it on (ipad mini 4 is currently $400 or so). Now, whether Garageband recording + lets say a PDF viewer (for reading lyrics) + lets say iTunes to play backing track, can run simultaneously with BIAS software amps in the background, for live use, with lets say, an alesis multi-interface IO dock w/ MIDI in-outs, I dont know.

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

  • #20721

    pipelineaudio
    Participant

    because to me, there should be a region stack, i.e. you can have a region inside a region inside a region, and they will show as ribbons on top of each other.. you can make regions inside regions as-is but the small region will be directly on top of the large region, making selection very difficult

    Let me see what I can do about that.
    Do you think the ruler bar should expand in height so it pretty much has another nearly identical region lane that you can stick regions in?
    How should the region lanes interact with each other? If on region is longer than the lower one both before and after, what should happen if you ReaArrange the smaller region?
    Which lane should have priority over automation and item envelopes?

    • #20722

      superblonde
      Keymaster

      “Do you think the ruler bar should expand in height” – yup, well, the region portion of it. Ideally, dragging regions around, would dynamically make a new (perhaps empty) region-lane if it’s dragged into that area, to allow dropping in there.. but if there’s nothing there then the lane would disappear/shrink. Maybe the vertical-zoom-in-zoom-out would hide or show these many lanes or shrink them into one, not sure.

      “How should the region lanes interact with each other? If on region is longer than the lower one both before and after, what should happen if you ReaArrange the smaller region?” – not sure if they would automatically pop upwards and downwards in height. probably yes, dragging one region left or right across another region, should automatically lift a region-highlight-bar upwards into a new region lane. I would guess that the display area would always rearrange region-lanes such that smaller ones would be on top. Like building walls with lego’s, obviously it makes sense for the small ones to be on top, like a pyramid shape. Note- I’m a little lost in this description at the moment, because regions are not items, so they aren’t dragged around, they are stuck as timeline markers regardless of item moves?.. (but it would be nice if they could be)

      “Which lane should have priority over automation and item envelopes?” – these are just regions so I didnt think filters/things were applied to regions?.. i.e. why would there need to be a priority? There’s still only 1 track with items in it. The region stack just marks places between markers in an item..?

      It would be also great if the timeline would lengthen or shorten under some kind of easy control.. i.e. I record my rhythm part then chunk it up into song sections verse/chorus/verse/chorus then decide I want a bridge in there but as far as I’ve tried (I may be missing something) there’s no way to “insert region here” (other than “insert empty space at marker” which is bizarre because it doesn’t allow arbitrary length of insertion, only inserting the length of what’s highlighted, which is awkward when I want to, like Audacity style, “insert 10 seconds of x here” and everything shifts to the right). Or changing item speed does not stretch like Garageband (the way it makes sense to do, as Final Cut 7 would do), it kind of sticks the timeline as-is and the item lengthens and the markers and regions are all destroyed after that.. (I have yet to find the timeline setting on the track or the project or the item which will make everything shift to the right like I want, tried many things tho)

      I havent yet used Final Cut X, but supposedly it gets rid of the timeline, and makes some kind of connections between “things” (clips? clip segments?). Ultimately long term, Reaper might do away with a timeline too, i.e. tracks/items are just floating around as regions or not, and there’s a way to sequentially chain-link them together to get a contiguous result. The idea is, I guess, that the timeline is just a remnant of thinking of things in terms of linear tape, and a non-linear editor doesn’t have to be linear at all. To this end one thing I want to do a lot, is to take a long recording, chop it up into regions (lets say for example, individual songs), then use a linker of some sort, to chain desired regions together (in any order), and render the result as a single file. Like making a mix tape of those individual songs in arbitrary order. Currently I guess Id have to bounce these items/regions (or render them out) then make a new project to re-order them as desired, then render that result as the final copy.

      I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
      And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

  • #20724

    pipelineaudio
    Participant

    The regions “own” envelopes and everything in their time section, so multiple regions will need a priority of some sort, but made the viola went off when you said “aren’t items”…maybe they should be. Right now the functionality you want sort of already exists in the ability to add projects sort of as items, but nowhere near as flexibly as it would if there were really region lanes.

    You already know about copying and pasting and dragging and sorting of regions right? I think that and all the user made playlisting scripts all kind of fall under the ReaArrange thing, but it could be simpler and nicer I think

    • #20731

      superblonde
      Keymaster

      While I’m complaining about region behavior I might as well mention, in the Marker/Region window (the one that lists the stuff) there’s no easy UI way to click on a region name and have the timeline then select that region in the timeline and jump the cursor there. Clicking on it, depending on what the focus is, will end up editing whatever is being clicked on (the color or the name or the time etc).

      I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
      And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

  • #20725

    pipelineaudio
    Participant

    there’s no way to “insert region here” (other than “insert empty space at marker” which is bizarre because it doesn’t allow arbitrary length of insertion, only inserting the length of what’s highlighted, which is awkward when I want to, like Audacity style, “insert 10 seconds of x here” and everything shifts to the right).

    Usually what I do in this situation is to make a region in the dead space well after the song of the length I want and then drag it to the spot I want. Everything then shifts to the right as well.

  • #20728

    Igglepud
    Participant

    Ableton Live… *light shines from above and an angelic choir sings*

    It’s the best…

    MY ROCK IS FIERCE!!!

  • #20732

    pipelineaudio
    Participant

    While I’m complaining about region behavior I might as well mention, in the Marker/Region window (the one that lists the stuff) there’s no easy UI way to click on a region name and have the timeline then select that region in the timeline and jump the cursor there. Clicking on it, depending on what the focus is, will end up editing whatever is being clicked on (the color or the name or the time etc).

    Double click the region

    • #20735

      superblonde
      Keymaster

      Clicking the region itself (in the ruler bar area) is applicable if the region is onscreen. If I have a 3 hr timeline then it would be nice to click on a row of the Marker/Region window to navigate around the timeline rapidly.

      I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
      And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

  • #20736

    pipelineaudio
    Participant

    Ahhh like that navigator thing cakewalk has?

  • #20737

    pipelineaudio
    Participant

    You can do view/navigator for some functions or assign a key to “go to marker x”, go to region x, etc…I’ll see if SWS or someone made something to show the markers in an easier way

  • #20738

    rightonthemark
    Participant

    a couple of good articles about “in the box” vs console mixing.

    In-The-Box Mixer Ken Andrews Wins Blind Shootout Over Analog Console Mixes

    The Day Iconic Mixer Andrew Scheps Ditched His Console For A Laptop

    i personally like reaper.
    i started out with a free version of sonar but outgrew the limitations and rather than spend $500 to upgrade to the full unlimited version i switched to reaper. while there was a learning curve it wasn’t that tough of a transition – especially with their online community.
    i have since messed with cubase (got a free version with an interface i bought) – it was okay. i’ve also messed with presonus studio one artist (got it for $5 during a cinco de mayo sale – at that price i figured why not) – i didn’t like it at all. and i messed with mixbus ( got it on sale for $20 and again, at that price why not?) – once again i hated it.
    i really liked sonar and how it was organized – especially for bus fx sends and the fact that each track has a dedicated channel strip.
    it took some getting used to not having that in reaper. but, in reaper i love the folder system for your basic group bus. instead of using the bus fx send i typically just automate everything in reaper for each track. the lack of a built in channel strip is the only thing i miss, but i get why they don’t have it. plus channel fx chains can be customize and saved. and there are good vst channel strips out there too. i really like izotope stuff. kinda pricey. and for the hobbiest like myself ezmix2 and expansion packs are great without breaking the bank. and aams for a basic quick mastering.

    rock and roll ain't pretty; that's why they picked us to play it.

  • #20739

    pipelineaudio
    Participant

    You can setup your own channel strip in reaper

    strip

    Can’t really have a stock one or 1 guy would like it and 50,000 others would hate it. If you have plugs you absolutely use on every track, you can bring up their controls on the mcp and tcp

  • #20740

    rightonthemark
    Participant

    You can setup your own channel strip in reaper

    strip

    Can’t really have a stock one or 1 guy would like it and 50,000 others would hate it. If you have plugs you absolutely use on every track, you can bring up their controls on the mcp and tcp

    that’s great.
    i got used to using it how i do and it works for me.
    but i really like the way that looks.
    is there a template for that?
    or where do i go to customize something like that.
    i haven’t reallt messed with reaper much lately other than to record songs i’m working for the band. so i just slap some ezmix patches i like on it and the run it thru aams. and that’s good enough to put on youtube.

    rock and roll ain't pretty; that's why they picked us to play it.

  • #20741

    pipelineaudio
    Participant

    Here’s a video showing how to do it, and he even has EZMix. Once done you can save that as a track template, make some other stuff with different plugin chains and save as track templates and then mix and match in any project. You can change the alias for the knobs as well

    • #20742

      rightonthemark
      Participant

      thanks dude.
      wish i would have known this when i was recording and mixing for a couple of local bands.
      i have since given up on doing that and have gotten back into a band after more than a decade hiatus.
      this will be helpful when i get to the point of recording for us.
      very cool stuff.

      rock and roll ain't pretty; that's why they picked us to play it.

  • #20743

    Igglepud
    Participant

    Another program worth looking into is Ardour. It seems pretty insane and costs whatever you’re willing to pay.

    MY ROCK IS FIERCE!!!

  • #20744

    superblonde
    Keymaster

    Pipeline did you ever think about making a mini course on mixing or one on mastering using a real band’s album as a real life example and using Reaper as the daw?

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

  • #20748

    pipelineaudio
    Participant

    Pipeline did you ever think about making a mini course on mixing or one on mastering using a real band’s album as a real life example and using Reaper as the daw?

    Early in reaper’s development we had some live streaming stuff during recording and mixing, with a live comment section, but man, there are so many professional video makers out there now doing it. Kenny Gioia’s videos are awesome.

    I do have a nice big space again now, and a few school projects to record, maybe if I can figure out how to use google hangouts and stuff I could do that again. Its supposed to be way better and easier to do this stuff nowdays

    • #20750

      rightonthemark
      Participant

      yeah. kenny’s videos are great and have been helpful.

      rock and roll ain't pretty; that's why they picked us to play it.

  • #20749

    superblonde
    Keymaster

    Hangouts are kind of hit and mostly miss in terms of making good content, too many um’s and ah’s, and no one bothers to edit them down later (2 hr hangout could be reduced to 10 mins of relevant convo). I bet you could simply do a screen capture while doing real work while recording an audio narration track on a separate recorder then go back and overdub the narration with a good mic setup after editing the video down. I’m not sure what’s going on with educational content these days it seems to be moving backwards- now that everyone has the ability to make hidef video, everyone thinks that “talking head” video is the proper way to educate on material? Umm most metalheads- I dont want to know what they look like – I’d be a far more mentally stable person if I never knew what Fricker looked like and he could have narrated is videos without his body ever being onscreen (using the video real estate to present actual educationally relevant material). Even the best MOOCs now seem to be walking backwards, previously they had lowres video so they would prepare really good slides in advance and that would be the video content, but now it’s just talking heads and the good educational slides are never created or presented to the learners. (If I wanted to see cheesy talking head video I’d watch fox news which I dont, bah!)

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

  • #20751

    pipelineaudio
    Participant

    Every time I need to make a video, the age old, ridiculous and insanely frustrating issue of programs on the same computer not being able to share 1’s and 0’s in realtime comes up. Justin adressed it as much as he could making ReaRoute and Dummy ASIO, but for apps like skype and most vidcap stuff, the stuff we really need for making these videos, its still a massive PITA.

    I really appreciate VB making Voicemeetr, but its still rough.

    As soon as I start thinking about this stuff, I start thinking about the interapp stuff and then I want to punch bill gates in the nuggets and ressurrect steve jobs and put him in a squirrel launcher

    I don’t know how the REAPER TV guy does it so smoothly and consistently

  • #20752

    superblonde
    Keymaster

    Just go lo-tech and point an action-cam at the screen, narration can take care of the rest, its not really necessary to get the “auto-zoom-in-to-the-mouse-clicky-area” as long as the narration is good, and any good intermediate user can follow verbal directions easily. Or I guess just record the hdmi monitor output with a separate recorder (i.e. enable mirroring the display) if really a crisp video is desired but it’s not really necessary. It’s like when I made some of my guitar progress videos.. some of the best ones were simply, record video with kindle fire (which has a rather bad camera and low frame rate) and 2 separate cheap mp3 recorders placed at opposite sides of the room, then sync the media up later, vs. make some fancy setup of hi-end video camera and recording direct from console etc, plus it could be thrown together fast.

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

  • #20764

    pipelineaudio
    Participant

    Actually, I think i got a setup that works decently, even when REAPER is using the ASIO driver…I’ll order one more webcam for the big room and try it on wednsday.

     

  • #20765

    safetyblitz
    Spectator

    Or I guess just record the hdmi monitor output with a separate recorder (i.e. enable mirroring the display) if really a crisp video is desired but it’s not really necessary.

    For anyone wanting to do frequent low-hassle screen capture, a dedicated HDMI capture device is a no-brainer. And most of them have hardware H.264 encoding. The market for these is huge because of all the wannabe youtube stars who buy them for capturing videogame play.

  • #20767

    Igglepud
    Participant

    I use a Chrome extension called “Snagit”. It combines screen capture with audio recording (via built-in microphone). I use it all the time for my classes. I don’t think it’s free anymore, but it’s very simple to use.

    MY ROCK IS FIERCE!!!

  • #20775

    pipelineaudio
    Participant

    For anyone wanting to do frequent low-hassle screen capture, a dedicated HDMI capture device is a no-brainer. And most of them have hardware H.264 encoding. The market for these is huge because of all the wannabe youtube stars who buy them for capturing videogame play.

    Whats a good example of this device? Sounds handy

  • #20778

    safetyblitz
    Spectator

    For anyone wanting to do frequent low-hassle screen capture, a dedicated HDMI capture device is a no-brainer. And most of them have hardware H.264 encoding. The market for these is huge because of all the wannabe youtube stars who buy them for capturing videogame play.

    Whats a good example of this device? Sounds handy

    Here’s the product page from one of the leading brands. They’re available as either PCI-E cards or as outboard boxes. To find more, the magic google keywords are: HDMI game capture:
    http://www.avermedia.com/gaming/#product

  • #20786

    superblonde
    Keymaster

    Fricker has a good more recent video about recording metal guitars with cabinets and gives a rationale at the very end for why it is a good idea to use the old school method instead of recording clean direct + software amps.


    How to Record Heavy Guitar | SpectreSoundStudios TUTORIAL

    I’ve always wondered about the constant love of EQ’ing everything with cuts at the high and low end tho because every additional filter will destroy phase and while humans don’t hear phase directly, layering many tracks with messed up phase on each track theoretically causes some odd sounding artifacts. So all the “then I hit it with an EQ to cut everything below 80 and then another one to cut everything above 16k” is like.. deep frying twinkies, supposedly totally unnecessary and doubly unhealthy, still just theoretically saying though. It would probably be hard to A/B prove in a short listening test I think.

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

    • #20794

      Igglepud
      Participant

      I was working on a dance track last night, and I EQ ever single instrument. The reason is that you want less stuff competing for sonic space. There is no reason for a high-end lead to produce bass tones, so I cut the bass out. The bass didn’t need high-end, so I cut it. This makes everything come through the mix more clearly.

      You can do the same thing with panning. Giving each track its own virtual space helps isolate things and make them sound more clear because the speakers aren’t creating redundant sounds.

      MY ROCK IS FIERCE!!!

  • #20795

    safetyblitz
    Spectator

    Fricker has a good more recent video about recording metal guitars with cabinets and gives a rationale at the very end for why it is a good idea to use the old school method instead of recording clean direct + software amps.

    The advice in the video could possibly be valid, but could you point me to an example of a great-sounding record that Fricker has worked on?

    • #20798

      superblonde
      Keymaster

      I dont know. a couple of the videos he mentioned the albums he worked on but I didnt look them up. mostly I like his A/B test videos, which seem well done, and try to ignore his other stuff altho sometimes I watch the humor videos. His angry ranting style reminds me of spongebob drama segments (which I only know about because a friend’s kid was always watching spongebob, ugh). I guess his web page would have his related projects. Altho with his “silly musician text” segments I wonder why he is working with the level of people that he is apparently working with, to get customers like that. A more pro person wouldnt operate at that level, I’d assume, but I dunno, the music industry is, well, bizarre to me.

      I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
      And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

  • #20797

    pipelineaudio
    Participant

    He does really well with the new style of spray tan and weird sideburns engineers. The kids at our school LOVE that stuff, so I can’t say it sucks, I just don’t generally like it as much as some other stuff. I find the whole cult of weird sideburns, spray tan, and insistence on “use the FX of the week OR ELSE” somewhat disturbing, but these guys are getting results.

  • #20799

    superblonde
    Keymaster

    Thanks to ROTM’s previous suggestion, I finally got mt power drums, which is a great easy add on to garageband or daw stuff. it would be great to know what is acceptable for a good sounding track though. It’s too hard for my ears to tell currently, it could take quite a long while of practice listening, to see what sounds good enough and in what way. The Ty Segall example, I’m sure they recorded acoustic drums and mic’ed their amps, because that is the style they play, fuzz and tubes, I would be really surprised if they used software modellers or software drum kits. So the dividing line is, “does this cheap software drum kit meet the grade and/or can it be used out-of-the-box and/or does a more expensive software kit need to be used to sound somewhat professional”, etc.

    An example is the songwriting contest (not that a judging panel is an ultimate test of whether a track is cool, but just as an example), the song I subnitted, was actually 100% guitar pro 6 instruments (drums, guitar, bass), and my real vocals on top. That contest is specifically for songwriting not for “pro sounding” tracks. Which is maybe okay since GP6 is not pro sounding at all. If I replace those drums with mt power drums.. then? Or another drum package..? My other thought was to hire a drummer to record with his acoustic drum kit and replace the drums in my song that way – a huge step up in humanistic feel, tho in terms of sound itself, not sure if it would be superior or not. Anyway those are simply some practical tradeoffs when doing a “lets make an album in a DAW at home” style.

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

  • #20800

    pipelineaudio
    Participant

    A really dubious source, who I would not like to drive more traffic to, nonetheless had this pearl of wisdom “if the song sucks, the mix is irrelevant”. My corollary is “If the song RULES the mix is irrelevant”. All of the inbetween is where we engineers ply our trade.

    Sure there are exceptions, entire styles where the mix IS the song, and songs that weren’t so great but became huge because of the sound of the mix, but still

    Look at the Misfits, their entire danzig era catalog would be better recorded on a boombox…but so what? The influence is undeniable

    If you have a decent song, using superior or MT power or whatever drums is not going to keep it from hitting. It may help, freeing up your time and resources to concentrate on the SONG

    I know this seems suicidal for me to say since I make albums and create recording tools for a living, but its true

    I used to get a lot of crap for doing videos recording thru cheapy behringer or focusrite mic pres while standing in front of my racks full of high dollar mic preamps, but I think it proves my point. If you have a hit song nobody is going to say “oh man, good thing you used that Avalon mic pre on the third tom from the right or that song wouldn’t have been a hit”.

    Putting my Manley VoxBox on a turd would only make it a noisy, bandlimited and compressed turd, not a hit

    • #20802

      superblonde
      Keymaster

      That is a really good sentiment. Good songs are good even if the production is poor. All the more reason to practice more and get the skill level up and not rely on technology. Drums, computer vs human, is maybe slightly different, I guess not so much because of the sound, but because of the feel. It’s like early GnR that had Adler with the groove feel to it, vs Sorum which has the more on-time feel, both human yet Adler feels better to most fans because of that groove, now comparing that software, I’m guessing whether or not various drum packages have more realistic groove or not. Garageband has some great drum loops but they are still finite length and repeat the short segment and over the length of a song, it might not be something specific a listener can point to (like “hmm I hear the same short drum loop over and over, so I dont like this song”) but there’s something about the feel, that just isn’t right, especially after several listens – because it’s repetitive, no groove.

      Some of the classics which we think are classics with low production are actually very edited or even musicians were replaced, probably not the case with the Misfits (tho I dont know their details really) because punk had zero budget and zero studio friends (yet the Germs? maybe they ‘faked’ it?), but certainly many pro bands thru 60s, 70s, 80s, had studio musicians because the band members themselves couldn’t play the parts well enough.. classic early KISS according to Stanley’s interview had this going on but other bands too. So I dunno, pointing to a particular 1st album of a band and saying, “see, they did it,” sometimes I get suspicious – did they really do it the way they claimed i.e. some basement recording on a tape deck with just the band mates after getting drunk one weekend, or is that just the story that the manager told them to say in their later interviews. Ty Segall doesn’t give a —- so he’s not gonna lie about his recording experiences, he’s the real deal at least. Pop artists I sure wouldn’t trust, if they use a DAW at all it’s gotta be layered with autotune even if they deny it. Early Tool (Green Jello) also heavily edited their drums (I thought I heard that somewhere) even tho they had very low budget recording process and they were skilled musicians too (but playing songs too complex to easily play correctly).

      I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
      And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

  • #20803

    rightonthemark
    Participant

    here are some good real drum tracks from ron wikso.

    http://www.totalcontrolaudio.com

    for construcitng a song mt power drums are fine. for a finished commercial product i’d either go real drums or a better drum program.
    going real drums can pose a couple of issues.
    1) finding a drummer
    2) what might he charge if not part of your band but as just a studio musician
    3) how will you record them
    4) quailty of drums
    5) quality of mics
    6) mic every drum or just kick and snare with overheads
    7) which overhead mic set up
    8) and then there’s the mixing
    but in the long run real drums and a real drummer is just…well…real.

    rock and roll ain't pretty; that's why they picked us to play it.

  • #20804

    rightonthemark
    Participant

    the drums on this were recorded with cad kick and snare mics on the kick and snare respectively. overhead mics were a behringer c1 and a cad gxl2400 in either glynn johns or recorderman or a variation of them. earliest recodings were glynn johns and then i used recorderman and then i came up with a happy medium of the two. instead of the side mic being outside of the floor tom looking across the floor tom with the ride cymbal waving in front of it like glynn johns or over the shoulder like recorderman i found a spot just to the side of drummer next to the floor tom with there being equal distance from the mic over the snare and the side mic but the side mic being equal distance from the snare and the mic that is over the snare. essentially you have a triangle with three equal sides. this way the mic isn’t ober the shoulder and not way out to the side with a cymbal waving in its path to the snare and other toms. hopefully that makes sense. i have a diagram i drew somewhere. i’ll look for it or maybe draw it up again.

    rock and roll ain't pretty; that's why they picked us to play it.

  • #21105

    superblonde
    Keymaster

    While I’m complaining about region behavior I might as well mention, in the Marker/Region window (the one that lists the stuff) there’s no easy UI way to click on a region name and have the timeline then select that region in the timeline and jump the cursor there. Clicking on it, depending on what the focus is, will end up editing whatever is being clicked on (the color or the name or the time etc).

    Ok I dont know if I was incorrect before, or if in the very latest Reaper version this has become “your wish is my command” 😀 (which is super cool) because it seems now that Reaper jumps the cursor immediately when a region name is clicked on, in the region/marker window. Which is really cool except… it should only jump the cursor if a special column is clicked. If the “Name” is clicked, then it should go to Edit the name but not jump. Example.. I’m playing the project and editing at the same time, I want to rename the region, I click the Name while playing I dont want it to jump, I want to edit the name. Maybe the current behavior “one click jumps; two clicks edits” simply doesn’t work well because there’s now no way to edit a region or marker while playing without jumping. A new column with “jump to” icon would fix the whole UI behavior: only clicking in that column would jump, all other clicks in the other columns would edit without jumping. i.e. lemme be specific, it would look something like (where >> represents a new “click this to jump there” column):

    | >> | [colorbox] | R2 | MyRegionName | 237.3.0 | 471.2.0 | 133.5.0 | - |

    Speaking of Reaper region UI differences it is interesting that shift-M will create+edit a marker (allowing immediately naming) but shift-R does not. It’s a strange asymmetry between markers and regions. So I’m constantly making regions then immediately right clicking to name them. I’m sure I could change hotkeys but the default not having this correspondence to shift-M is odd.

    I'm an intermediate student of Metal Method. I play seitannic heavy metal. All Kale Seitan! The glutens will be eaten with relish!
    And on the Seventh Day, Mustaine said: ∇ ⨯ E = - ∂B / ∂t ; and there was Thrash; and it had a ♭3; and it was good.

  • #21109

    pipelineaudio
    Participant

    I didnt even know there was a region.marker window till now 🙂

    I’ll look into the edit on opening for regions thing

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